The Grammar Help Thread

[Ragnarok]

Okay, because jrrdw says that grammar talk happens in a grammar thread and he seems to have forgotten that the last one got deleted, here's a new grammar thread.

To open, a response.

ur a very stubbon man, so if people cant spell correctly u come in their thread and flame them???

From here

*One mystical linguistic correction later*

You're a very stubborn man, so if people can't spell correctly you come in their thread and flame them???

This not a case of "can't spell correctly". It's a case of "won't write correctly."

Even the most incapable speller can capitalise sentence starts and proper nouns, add fullstops, not use text abbreviations and run a spell check.
I know many people with dyslexia, dysgraphia and all sorts of related issues - not one of them is incapable of any of what I listed above. They might not always get the right word from those the spell-checker offers, but they CAN try.

In my time, I've long since learnt to tell the difference between someone who finds spelling hard but has actually put in effort and someone who's just being lazy (regardless of their actual skill level).
What I see here is laziness, pure discourteousness to fellow forum members. If you're not going to spend at least the effort it takes to make a post vaguely respectable, why should anyone spend the greater effort to answer your questions?

The thing you are completely failing to remember is that for a fair proportion of our members, English is not their first language. Also, as you suggested, some of our members do have genuine problems reading.
So, what's going to be easier to read for these people?

a) A post rather like mine, with good grammar and correct spelling*?
*Thus making it possible to use a dictionary to look-up/translate, if needs be.
b) A post that looks like a rejected ream from the infinite monkey room?

I don't pretend that I'm not stubborn about spelling, but as a trait that's not automatically bad. If the British weren't bloody stubborn wankers, then there's these big wars that would have gone very differently.

Anyway, what's worse? Asking someone to actually put in the small amount of effort needed to make what they're writing readable, or the refusing to put in that effort, thus making posts more work for everyone to read, and perhaps even nigh impossible for those who are foreign and/or happen to have reading difficulties?

But if I've got to be a jerk to try and get some common courtesy into other people's skulls, then so be it.
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This just became the "Grammar Help Thread" it is to be used for help with translations and how to "word" a post if you're not sure of how to do it. It is not to be used to complain about members posts! Any complaints will be deleted without notice.

There are already a few posts here at the time of this edit, if they are about you PM me and I will work with you to solve the issue.

Please feel free to help anyone who asks for it, and to ask for help if you need it.

Thank you for your help and cooperation, jrrdw.

(Now with sneaky corrections by Ragnarok)

[Technician1002]

What you are seeing is the product of a modern education system and no child left behind. Everyone is expected to perform as well as the slowest student.

What sucks is the kids then get bored, restless, lose interest, and then are labeled ADHD. Go figure. With modern technology and a button on the bottom marked SpellCheck, you would expect better, but remember, many of these guys are at my 3rd grade level.

I can understand some whose second language is English, but the rest is simply a product of phone texting among peers. Most phones don't have a shift key. At school they don't interact with grammar police. They are out of their environment when they mix with adults and a higher level is expected. Written homwork at school is very rare so these problems are let slide for a very long time. If you wish to see the level the education has changed, find a math text book from the 5th grade from the 1920's or 1930's. My dad has one and I can't do over half the problems. My high school math is below 5th grade math in the 1920's.

In real life, their ability to communicate with the written word will be how they are judged and given promotions or not hired in the first place. Many are planning on living in a social services environment and are entirely unprepared to earn their own way.

The best we can do is to gently encourage them to learn math, science, grammar, and social skills. It is not our job to run them off the form and be abusive to them. Go ahead and PM them if you have an issue with their post. An offtopic rant in a thread about grammar is almost as bad as bad grammar in the first place. It borders on and can become a flame war which is against forum rules.

I posted this publicly not to flame you, but so others reading the thread can discuss, disagree, agree, and suggest ways to help deal with the issues in a public forum.

If anyone has thoughts, please feel free to discuss issues of grammar. This thread is for it. Please keep personal attacks to a minimum. My public apologies to Ragnarok if this was taken as a personal attack. It was not intended as such.

[jonnyboy]

I can understand some whose second language is English, but the rest is simply a product of phone texting among peers. Most phones don't have a shift key.

When I text somebody it's going to look like FORE's comment above. Texting isn't about grammar and spelling (to an extent) the point I'm trying to make here is most people know where to draw the line on where its appropriate to type a text message and where's its appropriate to use proper grammar. I blame school's for this, I just finished 8th grade and my English teacher maybe taught one lesson on grammar, if that. It's not texting that's the problem it's that kids are never taught when it's okay to use grammar like that.

This not a case of "can't spell correctly". It's a case of "won't write correctly."

If getting answers faster isn't enough of an incentive then post deletion and member banning should.

[velocity3x]

So, what's going to be easier to read for these people?

a) A post rather like mine, with good grammar and correct spelling*?
*Thus making it possible to use a dictionary to look-up/translate, if needs be.
b) A post that looks like a rejected ream from the infinite monkey room?

"a)" Definitely gets my vote! Some posts are so disjointed, I'm afraid I'll acquire a brain aneurism if I attempt to read them!

[inonickname]

I agree. Hell, you don't have to be absolutely perfect (geez, I even missed a ' once). Just please don't use 'txt' talk, is makes the post seem so childish and hopeless.

Nobody cares too much if you spell slightly poorly, but there's a difference between using slightly incorrect spelling and the wrong word altogether. u and ur are not acceptable substitutes for you and your/you're.

Capital letters, periods, comma and spaces are your friends.

[Ragnarok]

I can understand some whose second language is English, but the rest is simply a product of phone texting among peers.

It is fairly possible to tell the difference between non-native speakers, and native speakers who are just being lazy jerks.
Like I said, effort (or lack thereof) comes through in a post.

An offtopic rant in a thread about grammar is almost as bad as bad grammar in the first place.

I don't pretend it's a good thing, but I shouldn't really have to be challenging people about their grammar, because it shouldn't be that questionable in the first place.

EDIT: Oh dear, my thread has been changed...

[jackssmirkingrevenge]

You're a very stubborn man, so if people can't spell correctly you come in their thread and flame them???

It would be better to pull out and come on their thread, we can't have this place filling up with threadlets

[Ragnarok]

Trust you Jack. Just trust you.

EDIT: Something I should have said earlier...

What sucks is the kids then get bored, restless, lose interest, and then are labelled ADHD. Go figure.

Actually, it's been happening longer than you might think. My grandmother (now long since retired) was a teacher who actually specialised in dealing with students like this.

Her solution was to simply give each child work for their own skill level and enough of it to last them. She eventually found she actually had students ASKING for homework.

In my case, I'm probably privileged as far as my learning of language. At ages where most babies would be just be starting to be read to by their parents, I was doing something quite different - I was reading to my parents. Nothing exactly linguistically sophisticated, but I was still a long way in advance.

I've always been a very fast learner - which is why I was often deemed trouble in my school lessons, because I already knew almost all of what was being taught from years back, making it terminally boring. In one case, I was nearly a decade in advance of the teaching, and knew things I wasn't really supposed to.
I've never been labelled attention deficit, but when the highest level classes were unable to engage me, I spent a lot of my earlier school years walking out of classes due to it all being dull tedium.

Also, as far as language specifically, my mother (a teacher herself) has a linguistics degree, so I learnt a lot of my language skills from her. I've never really been allowed to make mistakes.

I've still got horrible handwriting though, because there's never been much in the way of pressure on me to improve.

[ramses]

I've still got horrible handwriting though, because there's never been much in the way of pressure on me to improve.

if you can read it, then its good enough.
[/off-topic]

This just became the "Grammar Help Thread" it is to be used for help with translations and how to "word" a post if your not sure of how to do it. It is not to be used to complain about members post! Any complaints will be deleted without notice.

Enough said.

[Ragnarok]

Enough said.

That would be what jrrdw wrote.

[jrrdw]

Ok, it starts now. The above has been discussed, if you have a question or comment about the above do it through PM service. The rest of this is for help if you need it.

Thanks again for your help in making this work.